"Ketogenic" metabolism

[panacea]

See my other post for clarification in the ketogenic diet thread, I think you are misunderstanding the concept of being starving of any kind of energy, and being starving of dietary energy. During a ketogenic diet, parts of your body (or all of it) can be starving for dietary energy, but get this energy from itself (body fat>ketones, autophagy) and at the same time, use energy to store dietary fat as body fat, constantly refilling the tank. The result is that the same things which happen during fasting (ketosis, autophagy) happen to a lesser degree on a ketogenic diet, because the same processes are being carried out to sustain energy demands, even if it's less severe.

So, you can even be in "starvation mode" (nutritional ketosis) while bulking up muscles, since you can bulk up muscles on a ketogenic diet. All that matters is that your body is eating some part of yourself in adequate amounts (not tiny amounts) to sustain its energy demands, even if those bodily tissue energy stores (not glycogen) are being constantly rebuilt. Because unlike replenishing on a high carb diet, replenishing while remaining in ketosis does not exit the "starvation/eat yourself" mode of the body, it just prolongs how long you can "eat yourself" indefinitely.

I think you desperately want "starvation mode" to be exclusively for "fasting", but there is a word for that instead of starvation mode, it's called fasting. Because as I have already clearly explained to you, you can die of actual starvation while eating a horrible diet, and doing so is not "fasting", at least in the way you are using it (no energy intake), so there is no possible way that being in starvation mode has to mean you are fasting. However, nutritional ketosis mimics the processes your body carries out to sustain itself while fasting, you're in the same "mode" of bodily processes, even though it varies in degrees. You can see how there is a feasting mode (low to high carb, no ketosis) and a starvation mode (very low carb, ketosis) for every single person.

[RRM]

you can even be in "starvation mode" (nutritional ketosis) while bulking up muscles, since you can bulk up muscles on a ketogenic diet.

No, you are mixing up 2 different meanings of starvation mode.
1) Starvation mode of the body
2) Starvation mode of a cell (or multiple cells)

When you say: "you can even be in "starvation mode while bulking up muscles", you are talking about the body.
When we talk about starvation mode in relation to cells, we talk about autophagy.
The body as a whole (macro) is in starvation mode if there is a sustained severe lack of energy in the blood, due to exhausted spare glycogen and a lack of nutrients coming in from the digestive tract.
A cell is in starvation mode when not enough energy is supplied to that cell, which may be caused by intense physical exercise, causing localised energy shortages. Cellular autophagy occurs 24/7. Cells are being repaired and recycled 24/7. In cell repair, accumulated waste materials and damaged organelles ("cell-organs") are used for energy, and the cell as a whole remains intact (autophagy). When entire cells are broken down and recycled, we talk about apoptosis.

Both starvation modes (macro and cellular) may be caused simultaneously by fasting.
Besides fasting, usually, only cells may be in starvation mode, due to physical exercise or 'chemically evoked autophagy' by resveratrol, for example. Ketones may have a similar effect. So, the body does not need to be in starvation mode for individual cells to be in starvation mode.
When there is no sustained lack of energy in the blood, the body is not in starvation mode. Individual cells may/will be in starvation mode, but not the body as a whole.
And, of course, muscles use energy and protein 'to bulk up', so that the body needs to have ample energy and sufficient protein available to be able to 'bulk up'. This is often referred to as a 'metabolic phase' (as opposed to a catabolic phase, as in fasting).
During a metabolic phase (buling up on ample energy and protein), you are not in starvation mode (sustained lack of energy).

A ketogenic diet is about using mostly ketones for energy, as opposed to using mostly glycogenic bdoies (glucose, glucogenic amino acids) for energy. A ketogenic diet is not synonymous to starvation mode. A ketogenic diet may evoke autophagy in more cells than on a glucogenic diet, but a ketogenic diet does not necessarily cause the entire body to be in starvation mode, unless less energy is consumed than utilized.
On a ketogenic you may only 'bulk up' on energy and protein when you are in the metabolic phase.
You cannot possibly both bulk up on energy and protein and be in starvation mode.
During this metabolic phase ketones may very well evoke autophagy-like effects in individual cells, but ketosis does not cause a starvation mode in the body as a whole.

as I have already clearly explained to you, you can die of actual starvation while eating a horrible diet

That is dying of "malnutrition" (eg vitamins, minerals).
"Starvation" is specific for energy (carbs, fats, protein)

[RRM]

To highlight how misleading these statements are:

Talking about misleading....
Are you suggesting these quotes were about ketosis?
These quotes are from a (this) thread that is about a high-protein, high fat diet.
Please mind the first quote:

I have been eating a ketogenic diet for some years ... I know, you will tell me that high-protein diets are bad ... Why avoid eating red meat and their nutrients like carnosine and carnitine just to avoid cooking?

After some weeks on a ketogenic diet the brain fullfils its requirements only 25% from glucose, and the rest from ketone bodies.

And where do the ketone bodies come from?
Protein and fat. (including protein from your muscles)

Other tissues rely more on free fatty acids.

What tissue requires most energy?
Muscles.
And they dont use fatty acids, but energy from glucose (/ glycogen), fructose or glucogenic amino acids.

All these quotes are about his "high-protein ketogenic diet".
This is not about ketosis.
A high protein diet is not a ketogenic diet, and therefore not protein sparing.

The idea that a ketogenic diet wastes your muscles away to a meaningful degree is outdated information.

Initially, it does. That is not outdated.
But you have to actually be in ketosis to reap the protein-sparing effects. And consuming much protein, you will not be in ketosis, as glucogenic amino acids provide glucose.
So, you need a diet that actually evokes and maintains ketosis (unlike the high-protein "ketogenic diet" proclaimed in this thread), which requires consuming just enough protein and loads of fat.

No, a truly ketogenic diet is not muscle-wasting.
Regarding muscles, the problem with a truly ketogenic diet is that you need to have ample bodyfat available. That is because in ketosis you have no spare glucose (glycogen) available other than the glycerol in your bodyfat (in triglycerides)
The idea of having a somewhat muscular (athletic) look is that you can see the muscles (not covered in a layer of fat).
So, you need very low body fat. You need to be ripped.
But on a truly ketogenic diet you always need to have sufficient bodyfat available.
So, a truly ketogenic diet may support the metabolic phase (even for bodybuilders), but it does not allow you to get ripped.

[panacea]

Oh, okay, I had assumed "ketogenic metabolism" was what the majority of the posts were about. I guess you just straight up ignored that title and starting replying to keto dog about a weak reference to a high protein diet (where is even the proof it was high protein and not just what keto dog thought was high protein?) and none of us knew. Now that we all know you were talking about something irrelevant to a ketogenic metabolism, why not just remove those posts for us?

Also it's truly sad how far you have fallen from being a respectable thinker around here
The idea that a ketogenic diet wastes your muscles away to a meaningful degree is outdated information.
Initially, it does. That is not outdated.
Did I say that The idea that a ketogenic diet initially wastes your muscles away to a meaningful degree is outdated information?
No, I didn't, so the sentence I actually said should be used.

[panacea]

It saddens me to say it, but the person that mostly runs this forum (RRM) has aligned himself to be anti-ketogenic diet, even though it can be a 100% wai diet, he has kept it in "non-wai 4 keepers" section, and continually trolled this thread and the other ketogenic metabolism thread by playing stupid or ignorant to the obvious evidence, focusing on his misguided "definitions" which are actually phrases and not in any dictionary, ever, not one on the planet, and appears to be just basically on a huge campaign against the idea of a keto way of life, since it potentially turns everything he has preached and believed in and created a community around on its head, and makes us question all of the dogmas he has built for himself. Quite the typical response from an indoctrinated person, but I wasn't expecting it from him.

I encourage anyone who is intrigued to research and join one of the many keto communities, and try to bring the raw, unprocessed aspect to keto, so that you may actually be able to discuss a diet without having the leader of an antiquated and failed methodology (the success rate here is abysmal) throw a tantrum and try to isolate syntax he doesn't like because he can't find anything of substance to disagree with. I must be moving on to a more enlightened place to share findings.

[RRM]

You can see how there is a feasting mode (low to high carb, no ketosis) and a starvation mode (very low carb, ketosis) for every single person.

But that is my whole point:
You can be in starvation mode (consuming way too little energy) on any type of diet (with all the traits mentioned by you, plus more),
similarly, you can be in a feasting mode (plenty of energy) on any type of diet (including the ketogenic diet, when gaining weight).

Oh, okay, I had assumed "ketogenic metabolism" was what the majority of the posts were about.

Ketodog initially created the title of this thread.
Back in those days, not as much information was available about ketosis as there is now.
Ketodog really believed he was following a ketogenic diet.
This entire thread was dedicated to the high-protein/high-fat diet that he thought was ketogenic.
I was the one trying to show him that it was not a ketogenic diet, by telling him that high protein intakes (the glucogenic amino acids) prevent ketosis.

why not just remove those posts for us?

Because multiple people have stated that it is interesting information.
This forum is not to uphold dogmas, but to discuss any topic remotely related to this diet.

I guess you just straight up ignored that title and starting replying to keto dog about a weak reference to a high protein diet (where is even the proof it was high protein and not just what keto dog thought was high protein?) and none of us knew.

On the contrary.
Ketodog argued that this high-protein diet was a ketogenic diet, and i argued that it was not, because of the protein.
There was no doubt that ketodog's diet was a high-protein diet.
Just check out these quotes:

I have been eating a ketogenic diet for some years and I need to eat only once per day...
I know, you will tell me that high-protein diets are bad, that cooked protein is poison, but I need more proof...
At first I tried to eat mainly raw egg yolks, raw fish and other RAF (raw animal food)... If you eat boiled meats the HCAs are unmeasurable

Show me that high-protein diets are better for our health

That a ketogenic diet is healthier in humans is not wonder. Just google for low-carb human trials and see the results

Do you mean similar to the 'Optimal Diet' by Dr. Jan Kwasniewski?

No. I didn´t feel well on that protein/fat ratio; too low for me.
That your kidneys are stressed with high-protein diets is not true in a healthy individual.
I think that the optimal should be around 1 gram per pound of body-weight.

1 gram per pound of body-weight
That is high-protein

[RRM]

(RRM) has aligned himself to be anti-ketogenic diet

No, i am not.
I think the influence of ketones is very interesting.
I only am against the improper use of the phrase "starvation mode" for the body as its enirety, because it is misleading.

against the idea of a keto way of life, since it potentially turns everything he has preached and believed in
... makes us question all of the dogmas he has built for himself

You mean in the same way that autophagy by fasting turned against everything we had preached and believed in?
I initially did not buy the concept of fasting, because it did not seem logic....
until Dime showed me the scientific concept behind it, and it made sense perfectly.
And, by the way, you did not seem to think that a ketogenic diet goes against the Wai Diet (which is "everything RRM has preached and believed in"), as you thought the 2 could perfectly be combined. So, the ketogenic diet is no threat to the Wai diet, and this forum is already a testimony to questioning the dogmas of this diet.

Equally so, I find the influence of ketones very interesting.
But still, a ketogenic diet does not make sense to me, for the following reason:
The autophagy evoked by fasting and exercise seems logical to me, because autophagy releases nutrients for a cell in need of nutrients.
But if ketones are all the energy a cell needs, why would that cell release stored nutrients through autophagy (evoked by ketones)?
Logically, there will be a negative feedback response created by the abundance of ketones, inhibiting autophagy that was initially 'chemically' evoked (rather than through starvation)
Also, it strikes me as unnaturally rigid that both carbs should be eliminated and protein restricted. This severely restricts the intake of various nutrients.
For these reasons, we must be cautious, and cannot just jump the bandwagon, hoping everything will turn out fine.
As you can see, im still on the fence here.

[Kasper]

I wonder how it is possible to get all your nutrients in low carb, low protein, Wai Diet.

Could you show a nutrient table of an example ketogenic wai diet panacea?

[Novidez]

I wonder how it is possible to get all your nutrients in low carb, low protein, Wai Diet.

Could you show a nutrient table of an example ketogenic wai diet panacea?

I've been asking myself that too.

[dime]

I believe you could cover micronutrients with organ meat, although often they are disproportionately high in certain nutrients (e.g. vitamin A in liver).
Still, getting enough raw fat would be quite an even bigger hassle I'd imagine.

[RRM]

I believe you could cover micronutrients with organ meat

Yes, but that would also come with a lot of protein, which prevents ketosis (acknowledged by Panacea)